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Funny steering feel after fitting some suspension bits and alignment...

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vulnax

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Funny steering feel after fitting some suspension bits and alignment...

Post  vulnax on Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:57 am

Right. Put this in right place!

Had a lot of whiteline kit fitted at Demon Tweeks yesterday, and set up to the Prodrive settings ( that came with the prodrive springs ).
Had Prodrive springs on last month and set up to those settings as far as possible - although no adjustment at back & camber was out, not enough adjustment on fronts so less -ve camber than desired at front, then.

Kit fitted is at the bottom of the post.

Bit of a problem in the steering feel, the engineer also mentioned it.
If the wheel is straight ahead so bottom spoke is at 6 O'Clock, then as wheel turned so spoke is 4 or 8 on the clock then the feel goes really wierd! Feels like tramlining ( but does not pull car over to one side ) as the wheel sorts of pulls, and goes light as turned. Does not inspire confidence even though the cornering is better now.
My bet is over effective powersteering, but not sure.
Or if there is any cure.

Did i read on here or Snet about known powersteering problems with the hatch?
May have to see if Litchfield or Revolution can / will advise or fix it, embarrassing as I didn't get them to supply / fit the kit as DT do Snet discount and are way closer to me.

Cheers

V

WHIKCA313 WHITELINE KIT SUIT SUBARU IMPREZA ( rock n roll kit - wishbone ball joint & track rod ends)
WHIW0507 BUSH KIT LOWER CONTROL ARM
WHIKCA334 ANTI LIFT & CASTER ADJ FRONT ARM REAR BUSHES
WHIKCA414 Front CAMBER ADJ BOLT KIT-14MM
WHIKSR207 IMPREZA STI 08> HEAVY DUTY STEERING RACK BUSHES
WHIKDT901 GEARBOX POSITIVE SHIFT KIT
WHIKDT902 BUSH KIT DIFF MOUNT INSERTS
WHIKDT903 BUSH KIT SUBFRAME TO CHASSIS INSERT
WHIKCA326 STRUT TOP-CAMBER ADJUST - rear camber adjustable top bushes
IMPREZA INC WRX/STI GH 10/07>/GR 02/08> FRONT ANTI ROLL BAR BUSH CAR SET OF 2
IMPREZA INC WRX/STI GH 10/07>/GR 02/08> REAR AR BAR BUSH 18MM (2 PER CAR)
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vulnax

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Re: Funny steering feel after fitting some suspension bits and alignment...

Post  vulnax on Sat Nov 27, 2010 10:36 am

Steering "feel" goes light as turn wheel at a corner so bottom spoke is at either 4 or 8 on a clock, and then if turned more "pulses" as it feels like more assisstance is being given.

On a corner and accellerating, feel is like slipping / understeer and seems to set off the traction control light.

Also, as speed increases seems more assisstance is there and a small turn becomes exagerated.


Any ideas?


Poorly fitted new Whiteline steering bushes - rack removed ( kept power hoses on I think )

Anti roll / bump steer kit not needed and is causing problems as I have only lowered by 10mm with Prodrive springs - so may change steering angles too much?

Anti lift rear wishbone bush not suitable?


Whiteline say all these parts fine for the car if all fitted at once.


Any help?
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Derek FKS 85

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Re: Funny steering feel after fitting some suspension bits and alignment...

Post  Derek FKS 85 on Sat Dec 04, 2010 2:15 am

We are on the case with this and hope to have the definitive answer next week. Iain Litchfield hadn't come across this before but I'm confident I'm on the right track now.

Derek.
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Paul666

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Re: Funny steering feel after fitting some suspension bits and alignment...

Post  Paul666 on Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:29 am

vulnax wrote:Poorly fitted new Whiteline steering bushes - rack removed ( kept power hoses on I think )

Neil,
The steering rack kit comes with two ring bushes as some of the racks are different diameters, have they put the correct one in?
Paul.

Rheid

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Re: Funny steering feel after fitting some suspension bits and alignment...

Post  Rheid on Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:45 am

vulnax wrote:Steering "feel" goes light as turn wheel at a corner so bottom spoke is at either 4 or 8 on a clock, and then if turned more "pulses" as it feels like more assisstance is being given.

On a corner and accellerating, feel is like slipping / understeer and seems to set off the traction control light.

Also, as speed increases seems more assisstance is there and a small turn becomes exagerated.


Any ideas?


Poorly fitted new Whiteline steering bushes - rack removed ( kept power hoses on I think )

Anti roll / bump steer kit not needed and is causing problems as I have only lowered by 10mm with Prodrive springs - so may change steering angles too much?

Anti lift rear wishbone bush not suitable?


Whiteline say all these parts fine for the car if all fitted at once.


Any help?

I suspect that your issues are due to the Whiteline parts you've fitted to the front end in conjunction with an unsuitable geo set up. I'm running Prodrive springs with otherwise stock front end and no issues. And it would be almost impossible to incorrectly fit the rack bushes - it's so simple I think my 5 year old could have done it (once the rack was off of course!). When fitting the ring bush it's obvious which one to use so I'd be very surprised if they got that wrong. IIRC, when we did the UK to JDM rack swap, the UK rack would've used the smaller ID bush and the JDM required the larger ID one.

After you had the new parts fitted did you 'zero' the steering angle sensor and the yaw rate and lateral G sensors? If not, you need to take the car into your dealer, connect the Subaru Select Monitor to the OBD2 port and find the 'zero' position for the steering angle sensor. Put corresponding marks on the steering wheel and on the cowl behind the wheel to denote the 'zero' position and then have your steering alignment set for straight ahead (using the adjustment in the track rod ends) whilst keeping the 2 corresponding marks perfectly aligned. The yaw rate and lateral G sensors are a simple software reset, again using the Subaru Select Monitor. Once you've done this you can rule out the electronics having an undesirable effect. If you haven't already done this, I suggest you have it done before doing anything else as undoubtably the sensors will all be 'out' as you've changed the track rod ends.

As an aside, the issues Derek and I have been having are solely due to the different ratio of the JDM steering rack, and as he said above, a fix is in the pipeline - sadly that won't help you though.

I hope that's of some help and please keep us posted on your progress.

Cheers, Neil
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vulnax

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Re: Funny steering feel after fitting some suspension bits and alignment...

Post  vulnax on Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:23 pm

Cheers Neil, only just seen this post!

The rack kit has 6 bush parts and a special fitting tool, but yes, should be straight forward.

No, the car was done at Demon Tweeks, a large car tuning co. in Wrexham but I doubt they have the subaru select monitor to reset the sensors, something I think I need to do as you say.

I'll get back as things progress.
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sparkey

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Re: Funny steering feel after fitting some suspension bits and alignment...

Post  sparkey on Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:47 am

After you had the new parts fitted did you 'zero' the steering angle sensor and the yaw rate and lateral G sensors? If not, you need to take the car into your dealer, connect the Subaru Select Monitor to the OBD2 port and find the 'zero' position for the steering angle sensor. Put corresponding marks on the steering wheel and on the cowl behind the wheel to denote the 'zero' position and then have your steering alignment set for straight ahead (using the adjustment in the track rod ends) whilst keeping the 2 corresponding marks perfectly aligned. The yaw rate and lateral G sensors are a simple software reset, again using the Subaru Select Monitor. Once you've done this you can rule out the electronics having an undesirable effect. If you haven't already done this, I suggest you have it done before doing anything else as undoubtably the sensors will all be 'out' as you've changed the track rod ends.

ive rang 2 dealers up about getting this done & both say the same if uve had alingment done correctley shoud be no need to zero steering angle as wheel should b straight , as for yaw rate & lateral sensors they say if they r out of tollerents it will kick up fault code & engine check light , they either both dont want the money or r telling the truth for once

Rheid

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Re: Funny steering feel after fitting some suspension bits and alignment...

Post  Rheid on Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:25 am

sparkey wrote:
ive rang 2 dealers up about getting this done & both say the same if uve had alingment done correctley shoud be no need to zero steering angle as wheel should b straight , as for yaw rate & lateral sensors they say if they r out of tollerents it will kick up fault code & engine check light , they either both dont want the money or r telling the truth for once

I can only go with my experience on this but my car has issues with all of the above and no check lights. Derek's is also the same and again no check lights.

The 'problem' with all of this is that the system is very complex and if one sensor is out of spec it has a knock on effect. The control unit is preprogrammed to expect certain sensor readings for any given situation. For example if the control unit sees a steering angle of X it would expect to see (under normal conditions) a yaw rate and lateral g sensor reading of Y. If the steering angle sensor is out of spec then for the given X reading it would be seeing (for example) Y+1 which is out of normal range for the X reading so will apply VDC in what it thinks is the correct manner to bring Y back into spec. What this means in real terms is that there is actually no abnormal driving situation but based on the false sensor readings the car thinks there is so applies VDC - potentially not a good thing! Spirited driving, slippy conditions and the car applies the brakes for you mid turn - no thanks!!!

Both my own and Derek's cars are currently experiencing this issue. Cornering on a steady throttle activates VDC. In our case this is down to having fitted a Group N/JDM 'quick' steering rack but the principal remains the same. As you would expect, with the quicker ratio rack there is less degree of turn of the steering wheel in relation to movement of the road wheels than with the OEM UK rack. This manifests itself (as far as the VDC control module is concerned) as abnormal yaw and lateral g sensor readings for the given steering angle sensor reading and hence it activates VDC. A specific fix is in the pipeline but in the meantime for spirited driving VDC is disabled.

However, on any of our cars, if the steering angle sensor is not reading zero when the car is driving straight ahead then once the car starts to turn there will be a discrepancy between what the control module expects to see in the way of readings from the steering angle sensor and the yaw and lateral g sensor (and vice versa) and may in certain circumstances apply VDC. This will not give a check light as there is nothing wrong with the sensors, all you'll get is the VDC activation light illuminating on the dash - this is often so short in duration that you wouldn't notice. You will however usually feel something odd happening.

Anyway, for all of the above reasons this is why I would suggest having the sensors checked and zeroed if neccesary. Steering angle sensor in particular as this cannot be software reset, it requires adjustment via the track rod ends. Checking the sensors and zeroing the yaw and lateral g sensor takes no longer than 10 minutes.

This is not the easiest subject to concisely put down in writing but I hope that's been of some help!

Cheers, Neil
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vulnax

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Re: Funny steering feel after fitting some suspension bits and alignment...

Post  vulnax on Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:07 am

Thanks Neil,

Found a place not too far away who do Subarus, have a SSM3 select monitor, are a whiteline dealer and do 4 wheel alignment, so going to pop down this week for check over the front parts / fitting, and zero the sensors.

I'll get back with how it goes.
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vulnax

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Re: Funny steering feel after fitting some suspension bits and alignment...

Post  vulnax on Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:23 pm


22mm Whiteline rear anti roll bar fitted at the weekend with the adjustable drop links.
Couldn't get the transverse link nuts off so not fitted the braces yet.

Feels more stable, drives flatter.

Was going to fit front drop ( adjustable, ball joints ) links to the front but couldn't get them off!!! The ball joint bit with the threads spun once thenut was cracked back as bit .. need an air gun to remove.


Fortunately i am going to a place tomorrow with SSM3 select monitor, and 4 wheel alignment, to get the yaw and lateral G sensors zeroes, the front bush/ALK / roll/bump kits etc. installs checked, and these last few bits fitted.

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vulnax

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Suspension changes caused ECU errors in suspension areas

Post  vulnax on Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:58 am

Right.

Some success.

Firstly, there has been a Subaru bulletin out in the last week or two regarding steering feel... it mentions "pulsing" through the steering wheel. A bit like I had which felt like power assisstance coming in and out as I moved from straight ahead.

Generally refers to preload of the steering rack assay, and has a simple fix. It involves the steering column U/J and the order of reassembly if it has been undone. not got the details but says move something up and down a few times when loosened, and then bolt up in a certain order - incorrect bolt up order will pre-load rack and cause symptome. ( Maybe Rob can post it / scan it? ).


OK, back to my problem.

Checked ECU via SSM3 select monitor and it came up with lots of error codes for suspension ....
These were cleared and straight ahead checked as OK.
Lateral G sensor ( I think it was ) was showing ZERO ( range is -4 to +5 degrees ) so may be now set properly to suit suspension hardware, or is knackered.

So now to drive for a couple of days and get back on the select monitor to see if error codes have come back.
The 30 mile journey home, back lanes and dual carriageway did feel better, more progressive and predictable so may be fixed.
Next step is to check ECU errors, and perhaps replace the sensor in case it is faulty, and if that all fails then start to remove the front end Whiteline stuff piece by piece ... roll/bump steer parts first I think, then either steering rack bushes or anti lift kit, and re 4 wheel align.

But does seem like I am getting somewhere with this!

Thanks to Rheid for the heads up re: error codes for the yaw and lateral G sensors etc!


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vulnax

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Re: Funny steering feel after fitting some suspension bits and alignment...

Post  vulnax on Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:10 pm

Update;

Went back to the garage after a week of normal driving, town, back roads, dual carriage way etc. and the SSM3 was put back on.

Surprise, NO new fault codes.
The Subaru Bulletin to sort the UJ bolting up sequence must have sortee the pre-load feel, and the select monitor reset of the sensors must have put them back in spec, and now all is fine.

Drives nice.....

stinger

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Re: Funny steering feel after fitting some suspension bits and alignment...

Post  stinger on Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:40 pm

Do you have any info on the bolting up sequence as i am having the same problem after whiteline steering rack bush install.

Any information gratefully received!
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vulnax

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Re: Funny steering feel after fitting some suspension bits and alignment...

Post  vulnax on Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:00 am

Not really helpful, but it was the order that the steering column to rack u-joint bolts are tightened, as doing it one way causes pre load in the rack and the problem, the other way does not pre-load the rack.

Perhaps slacken them both off and tighten them the "non obvious" way and test drive? Then do the other way around if it didn't fix it.

Your dealer should have the service bulletin, maybe Rob on here can post it up?



Keep us updated on progress!

stinger

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Re: Funny steering feel after fitting some suspension bits and alignment...

Post  stinger on Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:40 am

Hi,thanks for the reply. I think thats going to be the plan....
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Rob

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Re: Funny steering feel after fitting some suspension bits and alignment...

Post  Rob on Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:07 am

Subaru service bulletin Pub. No. SB10-039
Field Fix Procedure for "Not-smooth feeling" on Steering

got a pdf file for those who require it

stinger

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Re: Funny steering feel after fitting some suspension bits and alignment...

Post  stinger on Sun Jul 17, 2011 10:37 am

Hi Rob, i'd be very interested in the pdf if you could send it to me Very Happy

Waiting for it be dry for more than 10 minutes to have a look at it!
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Rob

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Re: Funny steering feel after fitting some suspension bits and alignment...

Post  Rob on Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:13 am

stinger wrote:Hi Rob, i'd be very interested in the pdf if you could send it to me Very Happy

Waiting for it be dry for more than 10 minutes to have a look at it!

Can you send me your email address please bud
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sparkey

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Re: Funny steering feel after fitting some suspension bits and alignment...

Post  sparkey on Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:43 am

mite get u to check mine nx time am up rob

stinger

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Re: Funny steering feel after fitting some suspension bits and alignment...

Post  stinger on Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:28 pm

Well finally got around to fixing the issue.

With a massive thanks to Rob for the information, it was quickly and easily sorted. In fact it took me longer to get the ramps out and undertray off than to apply the fix!

Quick test drive and all is good!

Once again thanks Rob!!
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vulnax

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Can you spot the difference....

Post  vulnax on Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:00 am

Do you know what it is yet?

Can you spot the difference ( apart from one is broken and dirty! )



not the best pic,









Had a little problem, some clunking at the rear under the car, and rattles too.
Assumed it was exhaust catching.

It was actually the anti roll bar drop link waving about free and hitting the roll bar and suspension arms, as the lower mounting bracket had SNAPPED!!!!! No Evil or Very Mad Shocked
This bracket fits inside the OEM lower steering arm and has lugs that go over the top edge of the arm, then bolted thru OEM hole to secure it, and the drop link bolts to this bracket - all due to the alignment of the OEM drop link fixings being 90 degrees diametrically opposed.


Bought in Feb 2011, fitted in March or so, and I have been having the noise ( and very wobbly rear end, odd driving dynamics, understeer etc. ) for a few weeks. So lasted 5 months of normal road use!


Supplier was very good and replied almost immediately that Whiteline would send out 2 replacement parts, although when I asked is this a known failure they said no just product continuous improvement! New parts arrived by courier next day.

New lower mounting brackets ( adaptors ? ) now have knurled ends to the bolt barrel for better location within the suspension arm; Thicker metal ( approx 25% thicker ); top lugs now longer and larger and bend 90 degrees not just straight ahead for more load sharing; More metal around and above the drop link mounting hole ( the area that failed ).

Hmm seems like this is a known / identified failing and there is a fix ...


So if you have this kit check 'em out and maybe ask for the updated brackets!


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sparkey

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Re: Funny steering feel after fitting some suspension bits and alignment...

Post  sparkey on Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:42 am

well had car in to rob today

getting oil changed so when i was up got fix done on steering as had that funny feeling as if wanting to pull to right since having steering rack bushes done Surprised

must admit u can feel differents now Smile

top job as always Rob thanks again bud Wink

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